lördag, juni 07, 2008

citat från riksdagsdebatten den 13 juni 2007

Jag har tidigare hänvisat till riksdagens hemsida och till fjolårets debatt om signalspaningen som jag tycker gav en rätt god bild över vad frågan handlar om. Här nedan kommer några subjektivt valda citat från den, www.riksdagen.se, dokument, protokoll:

Peter Jonsson (s):
Under de minuter jag kommer att ta kammarens tid i anspråk kommer ni att märka att jag har en röd tråd i hela mitt anförande. Den röda tråden är att socialdemokratin sätter Sveriges säkerhet främst.
Den här frågan handlar inte om huruvida vi är för eller emot FRA. För oss socialdemokrater är det tydligt att Sverige behöver Försvarets radioanstalt för att informera oss om omvärldsläget och för att skydda landet och våra fredsfrämjande insatser.
Vi välkomnar en ny lag på det här området. Anledningen till att vi begär vilandeförklaring är att lagförslaget inte tydligt når upp till de integritetsskyddskrav som vi ställer. Åtgärderna är långtgående. Därför krävs det ett långtgående integritetsskydd.

Alice Åström (v):
När vi i dag debatterar propositionen En anpassad försvarsunderrättelseverksamhet är det en stor och viktig debatt. Det är en debatt som handlar om alliansfrihet, neutralitet, hur vi inom Försvarsmakten och inom det svenska försvaret ska kunna skaffa oss underrättelser och inte vara beroende av underrättelsetjänster i andra länder. Det är en viktig fråga, och det går inte att bortse ifrån att det finns ett stärkt behov av att ha en egen underrättelsetjänst.
Jag måste faktiskt säga att under behandlingens gång och under debattens gång, då kritik har riktats mot förslaget, och den kritiken har varit hård, från Advokatsamfundet, från åklagarväsendet, från polisen och från Säpo, har det skett förbättringar. I det förslag som ligger i kammaren i dag har det införts flera rättssäkerhetsgarantier. Det har blivit en tydligare gränsdragning i fråga om vem som ska ge tillstånden, vem som sedan ska kontrollera att tillstånden faktiskt har följts och att man inte har gjort ett övertramp. Men, fru talman, det räcker inte. Om man ser detta förslag tillsammans med många andra ser man att frågan om skyddet för den personliga integriteten och frågan om rättssäkerhet är frågor som har kommit på undantag.

Peter Rådberg(mp):
FRA-lagen inleds så här: Försvarsunderrättelseverksamhet skall bedrivas till stöd för svensk utrikes- och säkerhets- och försvarspolitik samt i övrigt för kartläggning av yttre hot mot landet.
Man ändrar alltså skrivningen från, som vi tidigare talat om, ”yttre militära hot” till ”yttre hot”, vilket nu inkluderar allt från flyktingströmmar till räntespekulationer och, sannolikt, fildelning.
Vad betyder ”yttre hot”?
Den generella avlyssningen av svenska folkets telefon- och e-posttrafik är ett sådant kliv bort från rättssäkerhetsprincipen – att enbart enskilda brottsmisstänkta ska kunna utsättas för integritetskränkandet – att detta är att se som ett paradigmskifte i svensk rättshistoria.
Att hotbilden har blivit större i och med att Sverige åtagit sig att delta i den internationella kampen mot terrorismen är helt klart. När Sverige inte är hotat av terrorism ska vi införa en övervakning av hela Sverige för att det finns länder som för en självdestruktiv utrikespolitik. Att regeringen handlar på det här sättet skyddar inte vårt lands självbestämmande. Det är att ge upp självbestämmandet.

Karin Enström (m):
Dagens säkerhetspolitiska hot, eller hot som kan få säkerhetspolitiska konsekvenser, är av en helt annan karaktär än vad de var under det kalla kriget. Hoten är ofta gränsöverskridande, asymmetriska, icke-militära och kan komma från icke-statliga aktörer. Syftet med hela försvarsunderrättelseverksamheten är att ge stöd för bedömningar och beslut avseende svensk utrikes-, säkerhets- och försvarspolitik, att bidra till det svenska deltagandet i internationellt säkerhetssamarbete och att samverka med underrättelser för att stärka samhället vid svåra påfrestningar i fred. För att kunna göra detta behöver man kunna kartlägga yttre hot mot landet.
Inhämtning ska få ske av uppgifter av relevans för att kartlägga militära hot mot landet och förhållanden som är relevanta för svenskt deltagande i fredsfrämjande och humanitära internationella insatser samt kartläggning under pågående insatser av hot mot svensk personal eller svenska intressen i övrigt.
Vidare får inhämtningen avse strategisk kartläggning av internationell terrorism eller annan grov gränsöverskridande brottslighet som kan hota väsentliga nationella intressen.
Vidare ska signalspaning få bedrivas för kartläggning av utveckling och spridning av massförstörelsevapen och krigsmateriel, yttre hot mot samhällets tekniska infrastrukturer i form av till exempel kvalificerade IT-relaterade hot, konflikter utomlands med konsekvenser för internationell säkerhet och internationella företeelser i övrigt av betydelse för svensk utrikes-, säkerhets- och försvarspolitik.


Staffan Danielsson (c): I den bästa av världar skulle det givetvis inte behövas vare sig underrättelseinhämtning eller signalspaning mot yttre hot och utländska förhållanden. Det skulle ju heller inte behövas något försvar eller några vapen. Tyvärr är vi inte där än. Ett litet land som står militärt alliansfritt behöver ett eget försvar, ett utvecklat samarbete med andra länder och en egen underrättelseinhämtning.
Jag är egentligen den förste att beklaga detta, men så är det. Då tvingas vi göra en jättesvår avvägning mellan integritetsskydd, som vi från Centerpartiet verkligen brinner för och vill värna, och det legitima behovet för ett litet, militärt alliansfritt land i norra Europa att ha ett försvar och att det ska ha så bra möjligheter för att agera som möjligt om någon aktion skulle planeras. Då behövs det underrättelseverksamhet.
Den här bedömningen tycker vi är så bra den kan vara i dagsläget. Låt oss gärna diskutera hur den kan förbättras ytterligare år 2011 vid kontrollstationen.

Allan Widman (fp): Det första man måste konstatera är att det gamla uttrycket att etern är fri för försvarsunderrättelseverksamhet inte längre gäller. I och med den lagreglering som nu föreslås kommer det att finnas viktiga begränsningar för hur denna underrättelseverksamhet får bedrivas även i etern. Det är ett helt nytt område och en stor landvinning när det gäller att vakta över rättssäkerheten.
Det är också viktigt att notera att lagförslaget begränsar försvarsunderrättelseverksamheten till just utländska förhållanden. Inte heller på denna punkt har det tidigare funnits några begränsningar. Det har varit möjligt att under decennier inrikta underrättelseverksamheten även mot det som inte är utrikes förhållanden.
Thomas Bodström återkommer till detta med möjligheterna att kringgå bestämmelserna om hemliga tvångsmedel. Jag vill bara uppmärksamma talmannen och kammaren på att det finns en tydlig reglering i försvarsunderrättelselagen i den ändring som vi nu föreslår ska genomföras i 4 §. Där sägs att försvarsunderrättelseverksamheten inte får vidta åtgärder som syftar till att lösa uppgifter som lyder under annan lag, till exempel hör till polisens verksamhetsområde. Man får inte ägna sig åt brottsbekämpande, och man får inte ägna sig åt brottsförebyggande verksamhet.


Else-Marie Lindgren (kd):
Herr talman! Det som är aktuellt är endast information av betydelse för landets säkerhet. Det handlar om det vi kallar för försvarsunderrättelseverksamhet, det vill säga om det gäller utländska förhållanden och om yttre hot mot landet förekommer. Av alla de mejl, fax och telefonsamtal som går igenom kablarna kommer endast en ytterligt liten mängd i fråga. Man brukar tala om att det är ett meddelande av tio miljarder som kan komma i fråga och undersökas utifrån fastställda sökord. Det är alltså en oerhört liten mängd vi talar om. Avsikten är att kolla företeelser och trender – allt för att stärka landets säkerhet. Ingenting sparas, utan det som passerar är borta.

Mikael Odenberg (m):
Jag sticker inte under stol med att det finns inslag i detta lagpaket som inrymmer en potentiellt ökad risk för intrång i den enskildes integritet. Det är klart att om man inför en teknikneutral lagstiftning så att en myndighet som i dag kan spana i etern också får möjlighet att vidga den spaningen till att även gälla signaler i trådförbindelser innebär det en utökning av spaningsmöjligheten och därmed också en utökning av den potentiella risken för intrång. Jag vill påpeka att med dagens lag om försvarsunderrättelseverksamhet är det i princip fritt fram för FRA att göra precis vad som helst så länge det finns en inriktning och så länge man håller sig till etern. Med det förslag som vi har lagt på riksdagens bord begränsar man verksamheten till att gälla utländska förhållanden, och man preciserar också att FRA inte får ägna sig åt någonting som har med brottsbekämpning att göra.
Försvarsunderrättelseverksamhet handlar om utländska förhållanden. Det handlar om yttre hot mot vårt land och mot svenska intressen. Det handlar om att kartlägga företeelser, mönster och samband. Det handlar däremot inte om att övervaka svenska medborgare. Det handlar inte om att bekämpa brott, för till det har vi polisen. Det handlar över huvud taget inte om att jaga enskilda individer.
Jag utesluter inte att försvarsunderrättelseverksamheten skulle kunna snubbla över en terrorist i Sverige som har samband med terroristceller utomlands. Men skulle man göra det kommer dessa uppgifter att lämnas över till de polisiära myndigheterna som sedan får gå till domstol för att få ett förhandsgodkännande om man vill avlyssna individen i fråga.

Thomas Bodström (s):
Med tanke på det sätt som man har skött det från regeringens och Mikael Odenbergs sida är jag rädd att man har gett uttrycket högmod går före fall ett ansikte. Mikael Odenberg hade alla chanser att få till en uppgörelse. Vi var tydliga med att vi var för FRA. Han kom till ett departement där förslagen låg framme och var väl förankrade. Vi var tydliga med våra tio punkter, och vi var öppna för diskussion.
Men det går inte att agera på det sätt som han har gjort. Det är beklagligt och tråkigt. Vi hade kunnat få en uppgörelse.
Vi står inför en mycket märklig situation. Det finns en mycket bred majoritet för det här förslaget, men oenighet om det sätt som man har agerat på. Vi får väl nu i stället se till att vi använder tiden framöver till att försöka hitta den bästa möjliga lösningen i stället för att bara gå tillbaka.

76 kommentarer:

Martin M sa...

"Man får inte ägna sig åt brottsbekämpande, och man får inte ägna sig åt brottsförebyggande verksamhet."

Det skulle alltså innebära att FRA under inga omständigheter får dela med sig av sin information till polis och myndigheter i syfte att hjälpa till i eller inleda brottsutredningar. Stämmer det Staffan? Är det vattentäta skott?

Mitt intryck är snarare att FRA inte får bedriva spaning som är inriktad på brottsbekämpande verksamhet, men att man får använda den information man kommer över till att assistera brottsbekämpande och brottsförebyggande verksamhet. I praktiken känns varken skillnaden stor eller lagens avgränsning speciellt skarp. Rätta mig om jag har fel.

Anonym sa...

Vill haka på Martin M:s fråga.

FRA kommer enligt lagen få rätt att rapportera sina uppgifter till brottsbekämpande myndigheter. Vad är då detta om inte hemlig preventiv avlyssning? Dessutom utan domstolsbeslut och med minimal förhandsprövning av sökbegrepp.

Så här står det i propositionen:

Om det inte finns hinder enligt andra bestämmelser, får ... de myndigheter som bedriver försvarsunderrättelseverksamhet lämna stöd till andra myndigheters brottsbekämpande och brottsförebyggande verksamhet.

Kan vi inte enas om att FRA får rätt att spana mot enskilda, då det är av "synnerlig vikt för verksamheten", och föra informationen vidare till polisen? Eller gör ni i utskottet någon annan tolkning av "lämna stöd"?

/Jens

Erik Hultin sa...

Det är synd och skam att det svenska folket i allmänhet inte är riktigt insatta i vad som nu håller på att ske. Det är än mer synd och skam att partipiskor viner och att kontakten med gräsrötterna verkar saknas.

Staffan, oavsett antalet citat från riksdagen du lägger upp här så förändrar det inget. Betänk gärna även att just din mail och ditt eget surfande kommer att övervakas. Det gäller även de mail som du skickar via adressen som du har fått via riksdagen.

Hotbilden saknas och av den anledningen så är förslaget fullständigt vansinnigt. Ni försöker laga något som inte är trasigt, och därmed så överlämnar ni vinstpokalen till motståndarna, d.v.s. de som verkligen inte vill ha ett öppet och fritt samhälle.

Dennis Nilsson sa...

Tänker inte ni som sitter i Riksdagen idag på de långsiktiga konsekvenserna av ert handlande, att ni nu skapar förutsättningarna för ett totalitärt samhälle, och vad det i slutändan kommer att resultera i?

När man bygger ett samhälle vars fundament vilar på högmod och misstro (läs FRA-lagen), misstror det samhället sig själv, och har därmed sått fröet till sin egen undergång.

Som vi har lärt oss av historien; samhällen som bygger på högmod och misstro, oftast totalitära regimer förgör sig själva inifrån, förr eller senare.

Det borde ni riksdagsmän/kvinnor, politiker och makthavare ta till er.

I ett totalitärt samhälle varar inte köttgrytorna hur länge som helst, för nomeklaturan.

Det enda rätta som går att göra med FRA-lagen är att lämna den hör hemma, nämligen i papperskorgen, på historiens sophög över miserabla och icke-fungerande samhällssystem.

Anders W sa...

"I den bästa av världar skulle det givetvis inte behövas vare sig underrättelseinhämtning eller signalspaning mot yttre hot och utländska förhållanden."

Vilka hot?
Dom Sverige får när vi skickartrupper till NATO ledda operationer?
Eller dom vi får när vi inte gör som USA vill?

"Då tvingas vi göra en jättesvår avvägning mellan integritetsskydd, som vi från Centerpartiet verkligen brinner för och vill värna, och det legitima behovet för ett litet, militärt alliansfritt land i norra Europa att ha ett försvar och att det ska ha så bra möjligheter för att agera som möjligt om någon aktion skulle planeras. Då behövs det underrättelseverksamhet."

Om ni nu brinner för integritetsskydd så finns det bara ett sätt att rösta i denna fråga och det är NEJ!
Underrättelseverksamhet behövs ja, men INTE MASSÖVERVAKNING av icke misstänkta!

Markus Gålfalk sa...

Jag är grovt skeptisk till att FRA ens i princip kan bekämpa terrorism eller grövre brott då det inte finns tillräckligt med processorkraft att rutinmässigt dechiffrera allmänt förekommande algoritmer. Det kommer aldrig heller att finnas tillräckligt med processorkraft då kryptering kan göras arbiträrt tidskrävande att dechiffrera utan större svårighet.

Det är dessutom trivialt enkelt att använda kryptografiskt säkra slumptal; en så kallad 'one-time pad' för oknäckbar kryptering så länge båda parter lyckades utbyta slumptalen över ett säkert medium(t.e.x. genom att ta emot ett USB-minne eller en CD-skiva i person). Efter slumptal har utbytts kan krypterade meddelanden skickas med trygghet över vilket medium som helst. Ett USB minne med 1 GB minne som kostar ~50 kr är tillräckligt för att skicka c.a. en miljard tecken utan att återanvända slumptal.

Dessutom tror jag att förslaget spelar rätt in i händerna på terroristerna. Det förefaller göra mer skada än terroristerna någonsin skulle kunna hoppas på; både ekonomiskt, propaganda mässigt och genom dess påverkan på vad vissa människor vågar tycka till om på internet och över telefon.

Det förefaller ifrågasättbart både moraliskt och ur lagens mening.

peter.a.sorvag sa...

Jag är starkt emot det aktuella förslaget om signalspaning.

Hur går det förresten ihop att man på detta sätt vill stärka sveriges försvar mot yttre hot, och samtidigt nedrustar vår militära förmåga så att vi till närmst står försvarslösa?

Finns det förhoppningar om att kunna sälja spaning och spaningsresultat?

Jag anser att det är djupt ohederligt att på detta sätt äventyra den personliga integriteten.

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Why common men's fashion is eternal

The basic man's suit has scarcely changed for over a hundred years. True, there are several kinds for various events, nevertheless they are all common in their search for a wise, sharp look for the person. The good thing about basic fashion for men is that it's efficiently trendy effortlessly neat. A well-groomed man can typically look his sharpest in a well-tailored suit, and this can be a testament to the style of such apparel. A match will undoubtedly be utilized to work in several occupations due to the professional search it provides to the individual, instilling a sense of respect and trust. Equally a suit will undoubtedly be used to many social events, such as a tuxedo to a black-tie affair. This extraordinary versatility which allows matches to be worn in nearly all events is what gives it its classic side and a permanent devote men's fashion.

Modern trends in traditional men's fashion

Although classic men's designs can never be replaced, it is interesting to remember that changes in men's fashion trends have produced particular traditional clothes back into fashion. The popularity of vintage clothing, specially, has taken back a wide-variety of common types into men's wardrobes, such as that of the dandy gentleman. 'Dandy'is a term used to reference men who dress in a classic yet luxurious way, placing value on appearance and acting in a polished approach. This development for almost'over-the-top'common fashion for men is apparent from events including the'Tweed Run', where men and girls of all ages dress in notably Victorian-style clothing and take to the streets on vintage bikes - with most of the men wearing remarkable mustaches! This is just one of several examples of proof exhibiting the revival of such types. Additionally, there are numerous blogs on line which give attention to gentlemanly style - such as'The Dandy Project'and'Dandyism'- as well as whole sites such as'The Art of Manliness'focused on giving articles on traditional men's fashion and grooming.

In conclusion, whilst certain issues with basic men's fashion could be brought back as new trends, the essential outfits which they are derived from will never fall out of fashion.

"All it will take are a few simple outfits. And there's one key - the easier the better." - Cary Grant

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